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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 12:52:00 GMT -5
I guess we start discussing things, right? Well, I'm excited to. So, here are just a few of my rambling thoughts while reliving this first section: It was pretty solidified to me in my first read-through that I was going to love Crowley as a character simply because he wasn't a typical demon or old school as Haster and Ligur were presented as. Them saying "Hail Satan!" and him just approaching with a simple "Hi" was evidence enough for me that he was going to be fun. For me, it's very refreshing to see demons conveyed differently from the norm and is very appealing, especially Crowley. It's hard not to like him. What kind of snake do you guys suppose "Crawley" is? Another note, I totally forgot how precious Anathema and Newt were as kids and rereading the section with the Prophecy relating to the end of the world events brought a smile to my face since now I know what it means. It's like re-watching an episode of a murder mystery show and knowing how it ends, but it still gives you goosebumps. Lastly, I know I've been kind of jumping around in this section, but I wanted to make a note of what was said in The Beginning: "I'm not sure it's actually possible for you to do evil," said Crawly sarcastically. Aziraphale didn't notice the tone. "Oh, I do hope so," he said. "I really do hope so. It's been worrying me all afternoon." This kind of tugs on my heart strings because to me this is a strong fear that Aziraphale has and probably has had since The Beginning to the present day and why he still remains fairly cautious around Crowley before the end of the story (where their friendship is more complete with trust). While Aziraphale is not the best angel (that likable bastard!), he still tries to keep up appearances and probably worries in the back of his mind of whether he is a good or bad angel. For me, it looks like it kind of sucks to be an angel (sucks to be a demon, too, but for different reasons) because it feels like the only way you can go is down whereas a demon, such as Crowley, can go up (not back into Heaven, though can they?), but be a decent, bad person at least "with a spark of goodness." Angels are extremely pressured to do good and are ultimately punished harshly for slipping up, even if it's small and fall. While I feel that God and the higher ups are probably a bit more lenient, letting Aziraphale go on living happily on the Surface with the company of a demon and worshiping his books, I feel that Azi probably still has that fear and it makes me feel a bit bad for him. I think that's why I'm not a big fan of concepts where Azi ends up falling or disconnected from Heaven. Losing his angel identity, a great possible fear of his, would be extremely heart breaking in my opinion and even a bit predictable or cliché. It kind of feels like an easy way out to create drama in my opinion, but I don't mind people who like that sort of stuff. I'm just not crazy about the idea, so I just stay away from that kind of thing and it's probably just me. (Then again, I'm not an angst reader nor do I really read fanfiction, so it's no big deal, actually. It's just not one of my favorite concepts and my personal taste.) Anyway, I guess this can also lead to: Would you rather be a bad angel or a good demon? Oh, also, how do you guys pronounce Aziraphale? I had such trouble getting used to that name my first time. I tend to say it like: Ah-zur-ah-fale
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Post by notsoholymarie on Aug 15, 2012 15:22:58 GMT -5
(not done reading the section, but I will answer anyway) (And also, you talk about so many things, I will probably do tons of different threads for every subject I want to talk about.)
Oh, I totally want to be a good demon. Reasons? Well you can't fall any further, right?
Aziraphale (Ah-zee-rah-fah-L as I pronunce it in French) would never fall in my opinion. Every great business needs some "in-between" agents to negotiate with the clients (in this case, the humans) and understand them. As a boss I would not fire my best employee...
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Post by crowleythesnake on Aug 15, 2012 15:24:37 GMT -5
Oh yay discussions! 8DD
Ah yes that part! I love it so much. x3 Crowley is just so casual, it's great.
In truth, the first time I read this book was mostly when I was half asleep and at school while trying to sneak pages in while I was supposed to be listening, which lead me to not really get a lot of the book, or it's wit. xD; This re-read is great though~
I like to think Crowley as a Python honestly. Something large, and strong and also able to eat your face if needed.
I agree on the fact that Azi's biggest fear would be falling. I'm sure it'd be a lot of angels fears though. I mean, as you said, the only way from Heaven really is down. I feel bad for him in that aspect, but I love how the relationship between him and Crowley expand as the books go on and the trust gets more true and larger and it's just lovely!
I really don't like the idea of Aziraphale falling either. It's sad, and I honestly don't think that he could, if that makes sense? I mean, he's done a lot for Heaven and stuff. I dunno, I just don't really like that idea. XD;
I don't think I could be an angel honestly. I'd probably end up in Crowleys spot, where I wasn't really a bad demon per sai, but I kinda just did what I was asked to. I don't think I'd ever be able to be an angel. xD; Sad, but true. But yes, a good demon.
I've always pronounced it Ah-zer-raphale. The official pronunciation is Ah-zur-ah-fale as stated by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, or one or the other. XD;
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 16:07:16 GMT -5
@ notsoholymarie:Oh, I totally want to be a good demon. Reasons? Well you can't fall any further, right? That's a good way to put it. When you're at that spot, you don't have much too lose. The only things Crowley has and cares about is his car and, more importantly, his friendship with Aziraphale. As a boss I would not fire my best employee. That's another good point, too. Like both of you are saying, I'm unsure myself if it's possible for Aziraphale to fall, so long as he keeps up his decent behavior. At least that's what I think. I think it's still an insecurity he'll probably have, though might think about it less in the future. I would probably have that insecurity if I were an angel myself. A little depressing, but as nice as it would be to be a good demon, you're still a demon. They don't have it easy, either. They just look like they have more fun and some, like Crowley, could be more grounded in their thinking. @ crowleythesnake:I also agree that I love how Aziraphale's and Crowley's trust and relationship grows throughout the book. I'm relieved that it seems I'm close to pronouncing Aziraphale's name right. Sometimes I just call him Azi (Aw-zee) as a quick nickname. Going back to snakes, I could see Crawley!Crowley as a python, too. Something big enough to wrap himself around trees or a certain angel. Plus, pythons look like such big sweeties when they're not trying to kill you.
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Post by crowleythesnake on Aug 15, 2012 16:31:59 GMT -5
Pythons are so adorable. ;3; I love them.
They're super scary when they open their mouths though. xDD Jeez.
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lacrypte
Full Member
I had time, but I did not know it.
Posts: 118
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Post by lacrypte on Aug 15, 2012 17:17:04 GMT -5
Crowley was absolutely lovely in this chapter. I love just how 'Oh well! On my way! Don't mind me! Nice to see you!' he was was talking with Haster and Ligur, as well as Beel. You could tell just from that he wasn't your average demon and even though he loves doing his job he hated the idea of there just being hell or what ever would happen in the end.
I agree Anathema and Newt were just adorable as kids. I love Newt and his building of devices and shorting out the entire electrical system. It was adorable to see just how proud he was that he only shorted out the house this time instead of..well everywhere else. Anathema I can't even describe. I enjoyed how they described the entire book and then brought up how it was just like you could order books for kids with their names with it in it, only this time it literally happened every time.
I feel you there with the heart strings. The poor dear probably inside dreads it all. (Even though in the end he really does risk it all.)
Aziraphales name gets me every time. I am not good with new words and pronunciation in general so it was hard to get use to saying anything close to his full name. After listening to 8 Discs of the audio book I about have it where I'm not stuttering over his name for once. (As for the other question I have a hard time answering just because it varies from here to there--) Though I pronounce it ..oh now I forgot how to pronounce it again. Drat!
And I do agree with the python thing myself! I've always seen him to be a rather large serpent.
(I also apologize if these seems like it is rambling or if there are any grammar mistakes. My brain is rather dead from today!)
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Post by sepherene on Aug 15, 2012 19:10:43 GMT -5
I'm planning on making a voice meme on tumblr for people to read how they say different things from the books =u= As for Azi. I pronounce it as "Ah-Zee-Rah-Fail". I know there's been discussion on how Crowley is pronounced, though I think this is regional thing due to the 'o'. Gaiman and Pratchett have pronounced it as "Crow-lee" I think but I have a tendency to say "Crouw-lee" like it's pronounced in Supernatural.
Still on the topic of names though, does anyone know why Gaiman and Pratchett decided to call him Aziraphale instead of Aziraphael. As far as I know a good 99% of angel names end with "el" since it means "of God". It's curious that the switched the letters in Azi's name.
Also completely agree on the Azi falling thing. While I AM one of those creators of angst (I've drawn Azi falling very recently acturally) in CANON I don't think he would. I don't think Crowley would be redeemed either. That's the whole thing, the whole point of the book was that there is really no good or evil its just sides. For Azi to fall or Crowley to be redeemed would cheapen that perspective I think.
Of course the point about Azi being so persistent about being "good" is a reaaally good one. I think this is why I like the fic The Sacred and the Profane so much because it plays on his sort of need to be the good person but flip-flops it to fit the AU. Even as a demon Zirah always sort of intends to do "good" but his perception of what is good is sort of twisted. But he believes he's doing what he needs to do to be redeemed. He goes insane literally because everything about his being is wrong. His purpose is wrong, but his intentions still exist.
Also yessss Crowley would definitely be a biiiigggg snake like a python. The artists candragloomblade draws a very perfect Crawly in my opinion. I really should get into the swing of making him bigger ;u;
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 20:52:49 GMT -5
Everyone's saying such awesome stuff! I love this! (Oh, and don't worry, we all get brain dead) That name meme thing sounds great and would love to hear it. As for Crowley's name, I don't watch Supernatural (I've seen gifs and stuff, but never even watched one episode. I've been debating if I should or not), but I also tend to pronounce it "Crouw-lee." And on Aziraphale's name spelled thing. I believe I read somewhere that he was originally going to end in "el," but while Gaiman and Pratchett were writing the story, they were writing it as "le" to help them remember how to pronounce his name. As they went on, it sort of stuck and they kept it that way. I think that makes Aziraphale a very special angel flower. (◡‿◡✿) On the "falling" thing, I have to agree on that if Crowley was redeemed or Aziraphale fell, it would "cheapen" the whole point of the book. I really liked how you put it. Also, I saw that angst picture you did, Seph. I really liked it, actually. :> You always do great coloring jobs. I can look at angst pictures, but I don't like reading angst fanfiction. I'm weird, I know. So, I haven't read the Sacred and Profane fic and while I'm not sure if I'll read it (I really want to avoid reading angst), but I do like the concept of what would happen if it was Aziraphale was the demon and Crowley was the angel. And yay for giant pythons! I'm not sure which artist you're talking about, though. Could you show a picture example or give a link, maybe? I'm also trying to get into drawing Crawley as a bigger python. In fact, I just got this really adorable idea with a giant Crawley python and a happy Azi and a-a-oh gosh happy feels ;O;
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lacrypte
Full Member
I had time, but I did not know it.
Posts: 118
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Post by lacrypte on Aug 15, 2012 21:14:44 GMT -5
Oh personally I love the fallen are you have! 8) I think I reblogged a few before this entire re-read thing. Though I love about all fanfictions and fanart. After all, it isn't canon, but some of these things out here break your heart with the strings they pull. I think one piece you posted recently did that to me and I just pouted in saddness but loving the work at the screen and my roommate was horribly confused for the longest time.
I really need to get around to drawing fanart.. I tried today and I got Aziraphales hair colored and that was about it.
Though those pictures and videos of the python are adorable!
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Post by sepherene on Aug 15, 2012 21:20:59 GMT -5
I'm probably going to finish writing it up when I have a day off. I've done them for Supernatural and Assassin's Creed and they are just fun because I looove love love hearing voices and how other people talk. I've also been working on a parody song but I'm not sure if I'll ever actually finish that xD pretty sure I'll be Felled from the fandom if I do. Ohh that's really interesting about his name. I love that it's different. Like him. While we haven't met any other angels really in the book, I would like to think Aziraphale is the most human and less stuffy as compared to them. Sort of the whole "going native" theme. Though I highly doubt they're as cruel as the angels in SPN. And that's not weird at all. I can totally understand. I like having some things to cry over haha. Sometimes the humor fics can be a bit too cracky for me xD Though I love all fics really. And thank you, though I think I'm pretty awful at colors, which is why half like time I just slather on some color with the watercolor brush on SAI. DERE WE GO GUD. I also hate lining things. I'm still trying to find a way to not have to line things and still get to color. SORRY I MADE YOU SAD CRYPTE. No I'm not really.You're my spirit animal dude, with art. I'm so lazy. I have so many wips. I'll maybe color hair or fix and eye and be like "yep I'm done". I'm comicing out a scene from the book (the well good to have known you scene) and I've like 1/4 inked one page out of about 10. oh well. And this is the artist I was talking about.Here's one of my faaaaaav pictures by them.
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 21:32:57 GMT -5
Again, I don't know SPN angels, so I'll just take your word for it. I would like to say that it probably would have been nice to see maybe another angel character (I don't think the Metatron really counts since he's not a typical angel) to compare Aziraphale to, just as Crowley can be compared to Hastur and Ligur as to how different of a demon he is to regular demons. Though, I suppose it's not that necessary since it is implied on how stuffy angels can be and while Aziraphale may display his nose up in the air, he later gets away from that and becomes even more "native." And AH! I had a feeling it was that artist! I just wanted a little confirmation. I've reblogged that picture before. I'm such a sucker for sweet moments like that. Too precious! Pythons are just awesome, man. Beautiful killers one moment and too adorable for words the next. lacrypte: I can't wait to see how you did Aziraphale! If I'm working on a bigger project, I tend to have it as a WIP for a while unless I'm REALLY into a piece, then I just try to blaze through it then go back another day to do touch-ups and fix bits and pieces. Most of the time I just enjoy doodling. c:
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