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Post by notsoholymarie on Aug 15, 2012 15:28:47 GMT -5
I don't know if it's written somewhere in the book, but what do you think made Crowley fall?
I always read in fanfiction that he fell because he had some bad influence from his friends, is that really the case?
What do you think would have happened if he didn't fall? Would he be friends with Aziraphale?
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 15:43:20 GMT -5
As the book described it, Crowley basically just hung around the wrong crowd and I guess so much exposure from them made him lose his angel status. I still don't know what kind of event would trigger that, though.
If he didn't fall, I'm not sure if Crowley would be friends with Aziraphale. I bet Azi would probably find Crowley to be a pretty obnoxious angel and keep away from him. XD
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Post by notsoholymarie on Aug 15, 2012 16:24:24 GMT -5
I think in the end Crowley would get on his nerves XD
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Post by sepherene on Aug 15, 2012 19:17:57 GMT -5
I've always viewed his Fall like this:
When you're in high school your Mom or Dad tell you "Don't hang out with those kids, they're trouble". You ignore them, even though it's under their best intentions and hang out with them anyways. Suddenly those "friends" are telling you that you need help them shoplift at the mall. You're not sure about the idea. You know the risk, you know you could get into trouble. But you want to look good in front of your friends! If you don't do it you're a pussy! So you join them, even though you're not the one doing the actual shoplifting. But the group of you get caught. Everyone gets punished, even if you didn't really do anything. It just so happens that your Mom/Dad is God and his punishment is more severe than grounding.
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 20:03:27 GMT -5
Remember, kids, don't give into peer pressure!
Basically the lesson we could draw from Crowley's case.
What kind of "crime" do you suppose he did?
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Post by sepherene on Aug 15, 2012 20:22:46 GMT -5
That's a good question! I'm not really sure. I'm surprised none of the fics I've read addressed this actually. Seems like good fodder for speculation.
I know according to the mythology, Lucifer fell because of his pride and he wanted to be God. I'm going to assume Crowley's Fall was, let's say, in a mass Felling of angels who were supporting or sympathetic to Lucifer. He surely wasn't standing next to Lucifer, but he was that guy in the back of the crowd, cheering with the hive mind. Though Crowley does have some tendencies towards some of the deadly sins though we don't know if that contributed to his Fall or if it's just something he's sort of picked up from being a demon (or just being around so many humans).
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 20:32:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm a little surprised that I haven't heard of any fanfiction addressing that. I think there was a short one that addresses it, but I think it was just an anniversary of it and not more detailed.
I feel that Crowley probably has a decent amount of pride in him, being so pleased with himself for getting a good amount of people angry with the phone wire bit. And perhaps he's a bit of glutton, not with food, but with a bit of self-indulgence. He holds a lot of value in his car, he has a nice flat, and terrified plants.
Those small characteristics probably aided in his fall by my guess.
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Post by sepherene on Aug 15, 2012 20:36:59 GMT -5
Oh yes. Avarice, at least for his car and his need to have new expensive electronics. And oooohhh certainly sloth. I actually just read the sentence where he mentions that he slept through the 19th century simply because he enjoyed it. He even calls it a pleasure of the world haha.
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 15, 2012 21:20:41 GMT -5
Oh, man, how could I have forgotten about how much he loves sleep. XD
Thaaaaat's Crowley!
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Post by Whims on Aug 16, 2012 0:18:57 GMT -5
Since he was always described as an angel who "not so much fell, but sauntered vaguely downward," i always viewed it as him not doing/causing one big thing or event that made him lose his angel status and instead slowly moving more away from the ways of Heaven and such and more towards Hell. Since he clearly doesn't really like the way they do it upstairs, and he's kind of seen through the whole ineffability thing, he probably started doing his own thing and just ended up a little closer to being a demon than being an angel. I don't imagine he was a super loyal angel-y angel to start with! And when you think of his sort of "hands off" method of tainting souls, I can't imagine he would directly cause something that would result in an "OH SNAP you're fallen now, get on down to Hell" sort of response. They'd probably just eventually catch on that he was causing a little more harm than good once they thought about it more, and by the time anybody realized exactly what was going on he'd already be on Hell's payroll. I dunno, I just imagine his Vague Saunter Downwards as something a bit more subtle than one devastatingly dastardly event that put him straight in Hell.
(that response got just a little longer than i meant it to be i just have too many crowley feels, sorry all)
(gosh do i love crowley)
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Post by notsoholymarie on Aug 16, 2012 0:52:28 GMT -5
I think it's impossibe not to love Crowley. He is the kind of character that gives you too many feelings.
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Post by thatwhimsy on Aug 16, 2012 1:47:01 GMT -5
I think Crowley is literally my favorite character from anything ever. Seriously love that dude. (PS this is Whims from earlier, just now made an account good4me? )
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Post by spacegandalf on Aug 16, 2012 7:15:52 GMT -5
Yeah I agree that the 'sauntered vaguely downwards' bit would sort of suggest he didn't actively rebel against heaven but ended up getting punished anyway because he associated with the ones that did. If he hadn't fallen though I doubt he and Aziraphale would've even spoken let alone become friends.
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 16, 2012 10:46:37 GMT -5
That's a really good way of putting it, Whims. I think that makes a lot of sense. Feels like he kinda slipped through the cracks and after a while, people were like "Oh, guess you're a demon now" sort of deal.
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Post by thatwhimsy on Aug 16, 2012 15:23:59 GMT -5
Haha it just so happened that i was thinking about it before I even came to this page.
I think its interesting to think about, how in the end Heaven and Hell weren't a whole lot different. Just two different sides, that turned out to not really be inherently Good or Evil. But Crowley was always somewhere in the middle. Obviously, he tainted souls and other things that were pretty 'demonic,' but he also did a LOT of good things, too. And and a lot of the time it seemed like he does things, not because Hell or anyone told him to, but just because that's what Crowley does.
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