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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 20, 2012 18:09:41 GMT -5
Last thread I make on this section, I swear, but I can't give up the chance to bring in some sweet, sweet psychology into this discussion. Psychology is so delicious! Anyway...
Towards the end of this part of the read, Aziraphale goes completely awe fanboy mode with Agnes' book in his possession and hurries to his bookshop. Crowley asks if they'll keep in touch, fishing for a comforting answer, but Azi is too occupied with his thoughts and gives quick short answers and enters his shop.
Poor dear. Not only is this excellent OTP pain fuel, but for me, this is also a glimpse Crowley and Aziraphale's differing personality types.
The way I see it, Aziraphale is an introvert and Crowley is an extrovert.
Aziraphale, being an introvert, enjoys his peaceful time on his own as well as the company of his books. He doesn't need to be in a crowd to be happy, he just needs a good cup of tea or cocoa and a good book to read and some quiet time to himself to thrive. Many times, Crowley overstays his welcome and he kicks the demon out.
Crowley, being an extrovert, enjoys the company of others, especially the angel since he's the only real friend he has and spends a great amount of time with him. (Only until he's kicked out of the angel's bookshop and slinks away to his own flat where boredom ensues)
The "suddenly feeling very alone" shows that Crowley really enjoys being with the angel (keeps things from being boring) and perhaps needs the angel more than the angel needs him. That's not saying that Azi also needs the demon in his own way, but Azi has books to keep him happy, he doesn't depend on the company of others, while Crowley sort of relies on being with the angel to have some fun and pleasure in life.
There is a small misconception about extroverts and introverts, though, so please note that:
Extroverts DON'T always want to be around people all the time. They may like going out, hanging out, and partying in a huge crowd, but that doesn't mean that they don't want/need some alone time themselves. They just recharge their energy by being around others.
Introverts DON'T always want to be alone. They may cherish their alone time more and really crave for good moments to be by themselves, but that doesn't mean that they don't want/need to be around others. They just recharge their energy by being alone.
Both types do enjoy being with other people, but extroverts and introverts have different limits of how long they can stand being with other people. I'm an introvert myself and I love my alone time, but I love being with friends and talking with other people (like you cool guys), too.
So, I just feel that these two personality types fit Crowley and Aziraphale fairly well and gives a small explanation of why Crowley felt so alone. What do you guys think?
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Post by Kree on Aug 20, 2012 18:20:32 GMT -5
Ahh, suddenly relating to Crowley a lot. I'm an extrovert, and I know that I get completely exhausted when I spend too much time by myself (which sucks, because I live *very* far away from most of my friends, so I spend an enormous amount of time alone).
I know the feeling of 'alone' though, because my very best friend is an introvert, and I just want to spend ALL OF MY TIME with her, and, while I know she cares a lot about me, it's hard when she pulls away for her alone time. It feels like I've been kicked and am unwanted.
So Crowley, I feel your pain. :C
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Post by kajainthesky on Aug 20, 2012 18:27:50 GMT -5
Oh I remember how sad that part made me the first time I read the book. I may not be an extrovert but who likes the feeling of while wanting to be with someone, they stop listning and just walk away? I like the whole pulling psychology into, really. since that's wall it's always about in the er, line at the bottom. I just wished I was more educated on the subject itself because, really, I'm not. Not in any way.
Hey, maybe that's why Crowley talks to his plants?
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Post by manderspuppy on Aug 20, 2012 18:30:58 GMT -5
Oh good point! I always took that part as Az being a bit too distracted(and also a bit of an ass) but him being introverted makes a lot of sense! I'm an introvert myself(to the point of almost being a hermit sometimes) so I totally get the whole having too much friend time and having to throw them out of the house. My Crowley would actually stay at my house for weeks at a time before she had to move away. XD
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 20, 2012 18:53:39 GMT -5
Kree: You and your friend are Crowley and Azi and you are the Crowley. I know it's hard, but remember to not take it personally. That's just how introvert minds are wired. You are not unwanted and she does care and she likes being with you, too. c: Introverts just really value alone time, is all. Sometimes it's what gets us through the day and it's a great form of relief, generally speaking. I love my extroverted friends to bits, but I still need time to be with just me. kajainthesky: Haha, that could explain why Crowley talks to his plants. XD But yeah, it's not a good feeling when you want to be with someone and they just leave without any real reassurance. That's just how it goes sometimes. I was super lucky that my high school offered a Psychology elective that I could take and I LOVED it. I was also lucky again and was able to take another psychology class at my college last quarter. I really love pyschology. The mind is so fascinating! manderspuppy: I think that part with Azi is more of him being greatly distracted than just being an introvert. He was occupied with his thoughts and going insane in his mind about getting the Book. But I still think him introvert does apply to him.
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Post by kajainthesky on Aug 20, 2012 20:11:06 GMT -5
Was supposed to take psychology, come in for the first class and the teacher literally starts with introducing herself and going "So, I don't think that males and females are the same or should behave the same. Females should not behave like this or this if you ask me." I basically just went to abandon the course as soon as the class ended.
god, what all of you are writing is giving me so much more perspective on these characters. waahhh
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 20, 2012 20:21:45 GMT -5
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. Your Psych teacher said that? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. :T
That's horrible and not psychology at all! Oh, that angers me. >:T
You made the right decision to leave.
Psychology is the study of mental processes and behavior, NOT directing people how to behave. That's just stupid.
And hooray for perspective! ;D
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lacrypte
Full Member
I had time, but I did not know it.
Posts: 118
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Post by lacrypte on Aug 20, 2012 21:08:47 GMT -5
Oh gosh, I felt so sad for Crowley at this point. It's never fun when a friend or someone you care for a lot just blows you off for something. Because, they're suppose to care for you more! (All the OTP feels.)
I think one of the biggest reflections this shows just reminds me of our last conversation. About the part where Aziraphale really does give into what Crowley says as knows it as the right way. This just shows that Crowley isn't the only one who holds onto some power between the two.
Even though Crowley knows all of Azi's weak points and what makes him agree with him, Crowley also needs Aziraphale because he is company, he is family, he is a friend that he can talk to and have fun with.
Personally I think this fits perfectly. Actually some of this very senerio between a extrovert and introvert happened today. (Actually with my roommate and I and this makes me laugh now reading it because I basically did what Azi did to Crowley.)
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Post by spacegandalf on Aug 24, 2012 9:50:07 GMT -5
Huh. I never thought about it that way even though it makes a whole lot of sense now that I think about because I'm an introvert and I've often gotten complaints from my more extroverted friends about bogging off somewhere to be alone and leavinging them. I like that idea though because it's one the many ways of showing that Aziraphale and Crowley are supposed to be complete opposites.
It's a lot subtler than Azi's an angel/ Crowley's a demon and Crowley's suave and modern/ Aziraphale's stuffy and old fashioned and I love that. They're so different and they have all these conflicting personality traits which make it seem like they shouldn't be friends but they are and that's reallyreally great.
Ahem, so yeah...
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 24, 2012 10:53:06 GMT -5
Yes to everything!
I will forever appreciate the different dynamics between those two as well as how they have more in common with each other than their respective sides.
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Post by Kaytara on Aug 26, 2012 20:49:29 GMT -5
I don't know if I really buy into the whole introvert/extrovert model here - psychology is something of a crapshoot anyhow as long as there's no actual solid data from neurobiology involved, and we're talking about immortal beings with six thousand years of memories to shape their personalities here.
In particular, Crowley as an extrovert seems hard to swallow to me. He certainly seems interested in humans and what they have to offer, and we know he's had chats with important historical figures and such, but I think he may not necessarily have an easy time socialising just for the hell of it, if it's not for a job or some particular purpose. I think, without some ulterior motive in mind, social interaction would be overwhelming to him - he'd need to be able to decide how much to divulge of himself, constantly come up with convincing lies and backstories to supply for the conversation without coming off as deliberately mysterious or creepy; all without a higher plan in mind. And since demons aren't meant to enjoy conversation with humans just for the hell of it, there would be the problem of admitting to himself *why* he's doing it, as well.
It does seem that Aziraphale is much more self-sufficient and content to be by himself while Crowley dislikes solitude (his flat has the 'unlived-in look that comes from not being lived in'). This, to me, has to do with Crowley's far greater amount of emotional vulnerability. While he's dealing with it fairly well, he obviously has some great risidual bitterness and self-esteem issues over the Ineffable Plan Aziraphale keeps citing and how it apparently had to call for Crowley to Fall and be considered a damned creature of Hell just because he couldn't completely stick to the straight and narrow, and may have simply been damned by association with more guilty parties.
I think Crowley enjoys Aziraphale's company in particular because, on top of everything else, Aziraphale never seems to judge him *personally* for being a demon. The acceptance of an angel, even with conditions and qualifiers and the potential for overstayed welcomes, would be a huge boost to his obviously fragile ego.
What's noteworthy here is that Crowley was very desperate to arrange some kind of meeting very soon, keeping in touch as they've more or less kept in touch for the past eleven years, perhaps even hoping to be invited inside - and when Aziraphale completely dismisses him, he just deflates and goes back to his flat (that he doesn't like spending time alone in) and wallows in his misery there, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think he was really, really hoping to stick together with the angel, but was demoralised by Aziraphale's brusque treatment of him to the point of being afraid to press the issue more than he already has.
He *wants* Aziraphale's company, but seems very much convinced that he probably doesn't *deserve* it, and it's pretty heart-breaking at this point.
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Post by aliceapproved on Aug 26, 2012 23:24:28 GMT -5
I'm not saying you have to or should buy the introvert/extrovert model. It was just something I wanted to throw out there since I find that not only can most people relate to it and see it applied in their own lives (help understand family and friends more), I find it fun to see where some characters fall under those two categories (most in varying levels, such as Crowley is far from a full-blown extrovert).
You do make excellent points about this scene and Crowley's character, though. It's not exactly an introvert/extrovert scene, but I found it a decent time to bring this in because it shows how Crowley appears to depend more on Aziraphale's company for comfort and not seeming to "deserve" it is very hearbreaking.
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