|
Post by sepherene on Aug 16, 2012 15:45:30 GMT -5
Yeah, it's obvious that he doesn't really follow "orders" so to speak. And when he has orders, he does them begrudgingly. He even avoids orders. I think a lot of real demonic things make him sweat. He's not the kind of demon that would enjoy literally torturing someone (as was seen when he saw the Spanish Inquisition. He was appalled and got drunk). Tormenting from a far like an annoying little gnat that won't go away...yeah that's him more likely.
|
|
|
Post by aliceapproved on Aug 16, 2012 16:03:42 GMT -5
And that's why Crowley is so likable, because he didn't give into the stereotypical torturous, "evil" demon. Despite having to follow "orders" sometimes, he's still very much his own "man-shaped creature."
|
|
|
Post by thatwhimsy on Aug 16, 2012 16:34:22 GMT -5
He's likable because he's so human Even though he is clearly not Human, he thinks like us and feels like us and that's why he's so easy to connect with. As much as I love Aziraphale there's not the same connection there, because he's so much the Angel until further into the story.
|
|
|
Post by aliceapproved on Aug 16, 2012 16:42:33 GMT -5
Though, because Aziraphale is more of a stuck-up angel (not as snobbish as other typical angels), it leaves plenty of room for him to grow, change and develop as a character, which I'm a total sucker for, so I greatly appreciate that aspect of him.
I do agree that it is easier to connect with Crowley more because he's more "human." It's perfect!
They're both very likable in their own rights as discussed before.
|
|
lacrypte
Full Member
I had time, but I did not know it.
Posts: 118
|
Post by lacrypte on Aug 16, 2012 17:00:54 GMT -5
I agree that Aziraphale has a lot of room to grow. I think the reason I love Aziraphale so much is because even though Crowley is the more human like of the two, you can tell it in Aziraphale moves that way more and more. He's that on the boreder sort of character. The one is slowly moving away from the sterotype. Being all good and following all of God's order for his Divine plan (or at least what is said to be the Divine plan), to realizing that maybe the orders he is getting isn't right and that it's not right of someone else to determine the out come because it is 'a part of the plan.' He dosen't take Earth as just that chess board for a battle as he use to. Which leaves him a lot of places to grow. You egg Aziraphale on because he's becoming more and more human but he latches onto the ideals of being an angel since he is afraid he will fall.
On the mention of Crowley, one idea I had to his fall was.. Oh how to explain. I agree with all the points on how he did indeed slowly slaunter downwards. The bad crowd thing just reminds me of..think of when you're a teenager. When you first grow up the only influence you had in your life was your parents and your family. Those made up your oppinions your personality, your values. When you have a family with all the same looks on things, you do too. Then you get mixed up in a gang of kids with a new oppinion (Of course oppinons do form out of logic or common sense or just depending. Dosent always have to be someone else.), they start saying 'Why do you listen to them? Don't do that! They're wrong!' You start to form other oppinions and you slowly start to question your parents to the point you eventually point them out for 'being wrong' or just don't want to do what they say anymore. After all an influence of other oppinions makes you different, and then you butt heads like no other.
/Have some rambles--
|
|
|
Post by screechthemighty on Aug 16, 2012 20:38:05 GMT -5
This is how I've always thought of it:
Some Christian teachings say that part of the reason that Lucifer rebelled against heaven was that he and the other angels were expected to bow to and serve humanity, which was seen as the pinnacle of God's new creation. Lucifer's pride sets in (after all, he was the most powerful of the angels, why should be bow to a bunch of fleshy humans?), and he manages to convince a bunch of other angels that they could be on the same level as God.
Now, let's say you have Crowley. He might have a few problems with creation, or maybe just with the fact that they're supposed to just bow to these new beings with little to no explanation. He starts hanging out with the Lucifer crowd, thinking, "Okay, these guys understand. Maybe if enough of us do this God'll take notice and we can talk about this". He didn't want to fight, because let's face it, Crowley isn't a fighter. He's a schemer. But next thing he knows, they're at war, and he's on the "wrong" side. As a result, he's not treated terribly kindly by the side of angels, and is cast out with everyone else, when all he wanted to do was talk.
That's just my theory anyway.
|
|
|
Post by mariawhite on Aug 19, 2012 6:55:31 GMT -5
I think we should start with why other angels fell. Because you guys always say "hung around with wrong people" but Heaven had no "wrong people" to start with.
|
|
|
Post by aliceapproved on Aug 19, 2012 12:51:00 GMT -5
It was mentioned before that Lucifer fell due to his pride. He was probably flaunting about how he was so amazing and should rule. I would imagine that he managed to get some other angels to believe in him and eventually supported him as their leader, thus falling along with him. From then on some more angels would fall along the way and sooner or later become the "wrong crowd" that Crowley would meet and aid in his own "fall."
That's my guess on where they other fallen angels came from.
|
|
|
Post by closetcellist on Aug 20, 2012 12:49:37 GMT -5
In the York Mystery Plays (a set of plays that medieval Englishmen used to see once a year that depicted various stories and lessons from the Bible), Lucifer fell because of his pride, though these plays treat it not as a pride which led him to wish to usurp God's place, or as a pride stemming from a kind of jealousy of humanity (in this play, humans are not made until after the fall of the angels and are made almost as replacements). Instead, his pride manifests itself through a greater awareness of self--he notices that he is more beautiful than the other angels and believes that his radiance equals that of God and he then stops singing God's praises and spontaneously falls. According to these plays (which, granted, are just one interpretation of several small Biblical asides), there was no war in heaven--the angels that fell fell spontaneously because God made them too beautiful and endowed them with the capacity to notice their own beauty.
Whether or not this is helpful in Crowley's case is up to your individual reading of his character, though whether any narcissism could withstand time as a low-ranking demon in Hell is another question entirely.
As for fanfiction: There is at least one fic which suggests that Crowley fell not even because he fought on the wrong side in the War, but because, as the rebellious angels were being cast out, he questioned the harshness of their punishment and was banished for his improper thoughts.
|
|